Well, my blog is not really a place where I am attempting to give a complete systematic theology. That being said, if you look at my articles, alcohol is the only subject I have covered that could possibly fall under the area of Christian liberty or standards is alcohol, if I remember correctly.<br><br>The reasons I’ve posted so much on this subject are as follows:<br><br><ol><li>It’s something I knew many people would not understand, so my first two articles were a theological and practical defense explaining my reasons for my change in this area.</li><li>The last two are pointing out theological and hermeneutical errors that I have run into.</li></ol><br><br>I think the way many people handle this issue shows a general problem with the way they handle Scripture, which is my primary reason for writing this last article.<br><br>I’m curious in what way you feel that I am causing brothers to stumble. I don’t quite follow your statement.<br><br>If I was writing this blog as a teaching ministry as opposed to using it as a way to communicate with friends and family, I would try to make the topics more balanced. As it is, I don’t see why it matters what topics I choose to comment on on my site.<br><br>Rest assured that my life in general is not overly focused on where lines should be drawn in regards to standards and issues of liberty. I grew up in that, and have no desire to return to it.<br><br>

I, too, was involved in the last discussion on a different site and I agree with Matt.<br><br>What you’re asking then, Josh, is to ignore these type of subjects? I am finding more and more that the hermeneutical errors behind seemingly insignificant issues like alcohol consumption spill over into more important topics like soteriology. Playing fast and loose with Scripture is wrong, no matter the perceived stakes.<br><br>I’m also realizing that I’ve been thinking of alcohol all wrong. It really is not a “Christian liberty” issue in that it is not something that the Bible leaves up to conscience. There is too much evidence that wine is a gift of God given to be both enjoyed and used in celebration of Christ’s death. I’ve done a lot of study on Christian liberty lately, which is good. However, it simply does not relate to the alcohol issue and as such I will no longer be sucked into discussions of alcohol in that light.<br><br>The passage Matt lists above (I Timothy 4) is a relevant passage for this discussion, though. It is not we who enjoy the bounty of God’s creation that must defend ourselves. It is those who seek to deny us those gifts that must answer. By what authority can a brother condemn another for doing what Christ Himself commanded (Mark 14:23 and others)? No claims [false or otherwise] of a bruised conscience can possibly apply in this instance. One may as well claim that the act of baptism offends his conscience. Arguing Christian liberty is a non sequitur that simply doesn’t apply to alcohol consumption.<br><br>That said, if this were a discussion of Christian liberty, Matt is correct. Take another issue that the Bible doesn’t already lay out clear guidelines for (music?), and apply the same thoughts. The stronger brother would abstain out of love in the presence of one whose conscience may be offended, but the weaker should never require it and by no means should a regulation be added to Scripture to require adherence. The goal of the weaker would be to grow in faith which would lead to the maturity the stronger brother holds. To take on the position of the weaker, though, the indication is there that the stronger is slipping from the maturity he has achieved to a life no longer lived by faith. In other words, the weaker brother’s position is not to be attained to but to be outgrown as soon as possible.<br><br>

Quote to be referenced:  “If I feel that I am ever in danger of causing a weaker brother to stumble by my drinking, or by my defense of drinking, I abstain, at least for that instance."It would seem that by writing four (that I know of) articles on drinking (really Christian liberties) that you have generated quite a bit of negative response to your articles.  But in the quoted statement you say:  “...or by my defense of drinking.” <br><br>Now from my standpoint, it would seem that you are causing weaker brothers (those that are not as enlightened on the topic of Christian liberties) to stumble.  I am defining stumbling in this instance as follows:  giving a fellow believer a reason to focus on a subject other than Christ and the core doctrines.  <br><br>It seems to me that there is an excessive amount of attention put on where lines should be drawn in reference to Christian liberties (music, translations, alcohol, etc.).  I Corinthians 1:17-31 would seem to apply in this instance.<br><br>Matt and others, please understand that I am not trying to point fingers or incite another debate; quite to the contrary, I find these articles to be very interesting and thought-provoking.<br><br>

Josh,<br><br>I hope you won’t be offended if I caution you against your line of reasoning; but it seems to me like that approach would quickly eliminate the greatest means we have of helping our brothers: pointing out where they are in error, and the scriptural reasons why. If we have a strategy of shying away from topics that are not “core doctrines,” but that are wrongly perceived by many Christians, I fear we will soon find ourselves stagnating, or going backwards in our levels of doctrinal maturity. God designed the body of Christ to be building itself up to greater doctrinal precision through the discussion even of things that are not foundational (cf Hebrews 5:11-6:3, for instance). And even errors in things which are not foundational may quickly grow to become errors that attack the very nature of the gospel—for instance, abstaining from meat may become the devilish heresy Paul warned against in I Timothy 4. Remember, When Paul was speaking of the weaker brother, he was giving clear doctrinal instruction as to what was right in the matter. It would seem impossible to use a text in which he was giving doctrinal instruction on a matter of Christian liberty to deny the legitimacy of giving doctrinal instruction on matters of Christian liberty.<br><br>Just some thoughts. Blessings in Jesus.<br><br>

In response to your question of “why drink,” I look beyond the medicinal value of alcohol to the fact that alcohol is often recommended in the Bible as a celebratory beverage, and praised for the effect that it has. It is a good gift from God to be enjoyed, so I enjoy it as such. I would recommend reading the other, more comprehensive articles on the subject on this site (you’ll find them in the Theology category).<br><br>Thanks for your input!<br><br>

I am entering this discussion having done no specific research on the topic other than reading the above debate. I am also entering this discussion without criticism of any position defended by one’s conscience, so long as one’s conscience is entirely subject to the Word.I understand that interaction with the weaker brother can have positive or negative effects, depending not only upon your actions, but also upon your attitude. If your attitude borders on becoming trite, perhaps almost agreeing with such statements as “The weaker brother needs to grow up so he won’t be offended by my license,” then perhaps a more tender perspective needs to be taken, and a more tender conscience should be nurtured. However, a perspective should not become so tender as to not confront any given subject for fear of offense. Certainly no subjects should ever be avoided entirely, though some do require a more delicate handling. Attitude is extremely important.Coming to the subject of attitude, I pose a sincere question without requesting a written response. When it comes to the defense of consuming alcohol, or even the act of consuming itself, what is the motivation? Why alcohol? I know that it may have medicinal value in some cases, as evidenced by Paul’s instruction to Timothy. But is there a purpose for it today? In Bible times, alcohol was added to water to retard the growth of or decrease the presence of harmful bacteria. A useful purpose, in any case. But today, with all the available beverages and bottled (clean) water, it seems strange to choose alcohol off the shelf when it can cost anywhere from 2 to 10 times as much as other equally refreshing liquids.Does social drinking really enhance interaction with friends? Or is it an individual’s decision to drink just enough to catch a good buzz? (Is it approaching the point where we would become lovers of pleasure, more than lovers of God?) I don’t know, but to me, it seems that it would be difficult to judge when I was becoming in danger of being controlled by anything other than THE Spirit. <br><br>I don’t know if my personal ramblings will benefit your meditation, but positive, Bible-centered discourse on any subject is certainly a blessing to me. Iron sharpens iron.<br><br>Thank you for allowing me to share.<br><br>

Thanks as well for your helpful observations on attitude/demeanor in weaker brother issues. Whether accomodating or rebuking, if love is not the operative principle through which the interaction occurs, then the affair is bound not only not to be helpful, but fundamentally not even to be Christian. Thanks for the thoughts/reminders.<br><br>

Kewl!  So, like me and my old lady are going to have a celebration tonight in which we roll a few joints.  I mean, if it goes in the mouth, it counts as food —right!?<br><br>Wine is soooo celebratory.  I like that word, even if it gets used way too much these days.  My personal unfavorite is “celebrating the Lord’s Supper.” I think the Corinthians were good at this, but it left St. Paul just a little perturbed.  But, for normal party functions celebratory is acceptable.  <br><br>One question, what is it, in fact, that makes it so celebratory???  I mean like my wife, if she doesn’t water hers down from the bar.  She gets really celebratory in a hurry - ya’ know what I mean??<br><br>

It’s good to see the old Northland people showing up.<br><br>I would hope as a Northland student or staff member that you wouldn’t be rolling joints and drinking, as that would be violating the conditions under which you enrolled or were hired.<br><br>I don’t think I really need to deal with your comments as you are obviously just trying to raise a ruckus. If you are truly interested in studying what the Bible has to say on the subject, I would recommend checking out the other articles on the subject on this site.<br><br>

hmmm...whatever Northland may be, I’m assuming that you believe that they are not interested in studying the Bible and that and that most of them are not interested in serious debate.  Whatever your assumptions they don’t necessarily apply to me and those whom I shepherd.<br><br>Without knowing your intercourse with Northland (and that is not a metaphor), I can only assume that they applied some sort of injustice or brickbat to your situation there.  With this I fully sympathize, but we must be careful of resorting to positions that bear more a resemblance to bitter spirits than deceitful spirits.  I don’t see you advocating potassium cyanide to be enjoyed with such great zeal.  Surely, it can be eaten - but rarely enjoyed, and your thanksgiving will be in person with the Almighty.<br><br>Truly drunkeness is the sin to be avoided, not alcoholic beverage.  In fact, very few fundies will go without a fair amount of alcohol during the cold season.  In this, they will also commit the medical industry’s sin of mixing drugs and alcohol.  You are also right to say that other believers’ insistance that you obstain on the basis that you will offend them is also a misapplication of the adiaphora.  But, in every culture in which we minister we must be careful not to offend the sensibilities of people not necessarily germane to the gospel.  In this case, I’m not referring to some narrow strip of sectarian Christianity.  Paul regularly did this - shaving heads, getting people circumsised (ouch!), eating kosher.  Even James, in Acts 15 - Moses is read in nearly every city - so, please refrain from x,y, and z.  That is the first issue.  Go ahead a drink if you must - Luther certainly enjoyed it as Katherina Luther was known for her beer making, but keep in mind the reputation that the culture of liquor and the bar have.  I am not so stupid as to presume that a sip of sherry is the same as a kegger or downing shots of rot-gut and a frat party, but these images are in the minds of the entire culture in which you find yourself may be decisive.  Okay, my second nagging point is just to ask you why your drink?  Why do you find it so appealing?  What is it that drives you to actually offend brethren who have been “off the wagon”?  I’m sure that you will find Scripture and verse for this too that fits like my old Bible college theology teacher’s proof texts - not at all.  I’m sure you may entertain me with claims that it is good for the digestion, or it calms you down - and I’m sure you are quite correct.  But, somewhere you will have to answer what the real reason is, and you may never admit this on a blog.  By the way, the best opinions are not aired on blogs - so, you have an idea of the quality of the one I’m giving you now.<br><br>I’ve followed the links and read your amen corner.  I’m convinced that there is a tremendous amount of bitterness and hubris in your attitudes.  You may have good reason - very good reason - I know that I certainly did.  But, don’t waste your contribution to the church on such matters.  You and your friends have such good minds and abilities that debunking the myths with which you grew up is not the main concern.  Paul wanted to reach the Jews, but he was the apostle to the Gentiles - go figure.<br><br>I’m not certain that I find your sin in the beer before Bible study, but you may have sinned in the attitude which drives you to embrace it.  Did you know that coffee houses once had a similar reputation to bars?  Maybe, if you’ll extend fellowship, we can do coffee the next time I’m in AZ.<br><br>

I find it interesting that you deny having knowledge of Northland and yet your network information clearly indicated that your first post was made from the Northland campus. Being dishonest about your identity doesn’t go very far with me, and doesn’t do much to lend credibility to your views.<br><br>I understand how easy it is to accuse others of pride and bitterness on the web, and how truly difficult it is to actually make that determination, so I will let your accusations on that matter slide. If you read carefully, you will see that I have apologized for times in which I have been unnecessarily harsh. I try to keep my sinful predisposition towards pride in check, but all too often you may be right.<br><br>As far as my “amen corner” I can only laugh. Evidently you didn’t read the comments on my second article on alcohol. Or my first, for that matter.<br><br>The reason I drink alcohol, is because I have become convinced by Scripture that it is a good gift of God that is given to us to enjoy. Plain and simple.<br><br>The thing that bothers me the most about your comment is your presumption to have any idea what the focus of my life is aside from this blog. Yes, there is a large percentage of posts about alcohol on this site, but that is due simply to the fact that one of the reasons for this blog is to communicate some of my decisions and the reasons for them to those family members that I don’t necessarily talk to that much. I welcome others to be involved, but that is my target audience. On that note, the emphasis of my life is much more than what you see here. Some of my more recent posts do lean more towards other things that God is teaching me, but even with that you do not have a clear picture of the focus of my life, beliefs, or theological studies from reading this blog. Your insinuation that I am wasting my contribution is based on a small portion of the overall thoughts, studies, and communications of my life. I encourage you to think twice before making such accusations in the future.<br><br>I’m not exactly sure what you are referring to in your “beer before Bible study” remark. Could you enlighten me? If you are trying to imply (as seems to be the general tone of your comment) that I am simply using the Bible to justify my practice, then you couldn’t be farther from the truth. I only had one alcoholic beverage before I posted my first article on alcohol, but not before I had studied the issue to some degree.

well, duh!  anybody that understands IP addresses and DNS can figure that out.  If you are worth your salt, you should be able to ID me as well.  The point wasn’t deceit, it was characiture.  Rest assured I haven’t been rolling joints or drinking booze, but my wife has been taking narcotics - perscription, but not for her stomach sake. And, we don’t necessarily have to be anything but visitors on the campus.<br><br>Man! I was just looking for a little fun! Actually I really was trying to get some response on that bitterness issue - no, I’m not Dr. Von.  You and I have actually worked together and I know some of your family.  The bitterness issue is a nagging issue I have with some former Northland students.  I’m just trying to see if my contribution (financial or otherwise) has been lost because of poor administrative decisions made by others in the past.<br><br>I think I vaguely remember a post from you to the effect that you found a beer before study of the Word to be calming - or something like that.  Luther claimed to be his theological best when sloshed.  Then again, athletes tend to think they perform best when high.<br><br>I tend to wonder, if Scripture intends alcohol to be celebratory in nature, what the element of the experience of drinking said beverage lends itself to this.  I think that you can argue a certain amount of refreshment in this case, but I’d be hard pressed to say it was a buz.  In which case, what is the necessity of drinking alcohol at all?  Are there not other beverages which give such a non-buz refreshment?  Would you exclude hard liquor from the list of acceptable beverages? Or, would this be considered legalistic?  What about women, finnish and native americans who by metabolic disposition cannot take a sip without getting a little loose.  I know that you work out in the real world, do you really like those office parties where the soused secretary is coming onto you?  Do you find it refreshing to hear that your coworker and his wife are breaking up because the soused secretary and your coworker found themselve sharing the same bed? Both had their judgement severely impaired by a refreshing drink.  What about the nature of addiction - one that actually controls not just by headaches but by urges to have more until you do not have the sense to say, “no”?<br><br>Fundamentalism adopted the credo of the Temperence movement not so much out of legalistic zeal but because it saw the ravages of the addiction on working class America.  Theological liberals have also supported abstinence. <br><br>But, if you have already answered these questions in other posts. Just say so, I’ll finish my reading.<br><br>Really, can we do the coffee thing? Maybe we can meet dave and nate up in whatever Dakota.  I know nate likes coffee.  If you want to slip a little brandy in the coffee, you’ll not offend me.<br><br>

do you really like those office parties where the soused secretary is coming onto you? Do you find it refreshing to hear that your coworker and his wife are breaking up because the soused secretary and your coworker found themselve sharing the same bed? Both had their judgement severely impaired by a refreshing drink. What about the nature of addiction - one that actually controls not just by headaches but by urges to have more until you do not have the sense to say, no ?

<br><br>You really do like the caricature thing, don’t you? While I have no doubt that situations like this can happen, nothing even remotely similar has happened to any of the drinkers I know personally (believers or unbelievers), and these types of situations (if they happen at all) are rare.<br><br>Some of your statements may have been dealt with in the comments on Alcohol and the Christian Part Deux. I’ve also dealt with these questions in threads at SharperIron.org, but they failed to backup and everything I posted (even my user account) were lost.<br><br>Luther has been misrepresented to have supported drunkenness, but in reality he did not. He did, however, have a hearty appreciation for God’s gifts.<br><br>In regards to your addiction questions, I have dealt with this before, but I think primarily in comments on other sites. I’ll attempt to briefly sum up my views on that.<br><br>Addiction cannot be properly handled by avoiding the object of the addiction. The only way to truly overcome addiction is to be intoxicated with Christ. Anything can be addictive, and removing the item does nothing to solve the problem. If not properly dealt with, an addiction that has the object of it’s desire removed will only manifest itself in other (possibly more subtle) addictions. I.E., just because you aren’t an alcoholic doesn’t mean you’re not a drunkard, or materialistic. The answer for every kind of addiction is Christ, pure and simple.<br><br>And yes, I’d be glad to do the coffee thing, but it would be hard for you to maintain this cloak of anonymity.<br><br>

For my part, I’d be glad to meet you in ND for a coffee (or beer).<br><br>It’s a little sad (and makes for a conversation that advances only with great difficulty and in the face of many needless corrections/clarifications) to note that the basic gist of this dialogue has been your (whoever you are) groundlessly assuming things about Fitzy’s beliefs and attitudes; and his graciously correcting your false assumptions, and having little time left to construct a mutually beneficial analysis of scriptures on the subject. It is never helpful or wise to make judgments before accumulating evidence, asking questions, etc.<br><br>